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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:14 am 
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cueball wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
I will probably be dead before the baby boomer music is, but then who is going to sing it since most of the baby boomers will be gone as well.


I will be 60 next week,

Have a happy Birthday!!

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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:46 am 
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Bastiat wrote:
gd123 wrote:
Yes. "...lawsuit based solely on possession..."
Lawsuit can NOT proceed without evidence in the FIRST PLACE because:
1. A Disclaimer from the Get Go indicates that any BRAND may be missing.
So, can't prove any particular BRAND was on the HD.
2. In this case, STELLAR is the one suing.
Didn't have any Stellar on the DRIVE...prove it did.
3. Didn't want any Stellar. NO INTENT.
Prove someone wanted Stellar.

I was not aware that you were a lawyer, and had such a solid grasp on the rules of evidence, but I'll be sure to direct any future defendants to this site where they can PM you to get your legal opinion. Of course what better way to prove your credential than to purchase one of these drives yourself, file the disclaimer you speak of and then litigate the lawsuit, and I can assure you that such actions will be accompanied by a lawsuit. After all, just think of all the money you'll make with your COUNTER SUIT.


Yeah, well I don't need a Medical Degree to pop a pimple on my a#s...or do you think that would be Practicing medicine without a license.

Pimple on the a#s...what I think about these POS lawsuits. Maybe you can figure out how to conflate the two Professions.

Oh, and just because someone buys a HD and sees the content doesn't mean that a court ordered List of buyers had the same content...given a disclaimer.


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:31 am 
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gd123 wrote:
Yeah, well I don't need a Medical Degree to pop a pimple on my a#s...or do you think that would be Practicing medicine without a license.

In your case it would appear to be the equivalent of brain surgery so yes you would need that license.

gd123 wrote:
Oh, and just because someone buys a HD and sees the content doesn't mean that a court ordered List of buyers had the same content...given a disclaimer.

Yes it does, and the sellers, as part of the settlement agreement are compelled to cooperate and testify as to what exactly was on those drives when they were sold. You see real lawyers understand things like rules of evidence and are prepared for silly arguments like yours that go nowhere. My offer still stands. Put your money where your mouth is and purchase one of these drives (and from the sounds of things ... you might have already) so you can really show everyone how you deal with these POS lawsuits. After all, why should anyone have any recourse against anyone who has either directly or in a contributory manner infringed upon their intellectual property and destroy their business. Oh and by the way, if you're going to use words like "conflate" you really should know what they mean or at the very least know the context in which they are used before you use them. Try using a dictionary.


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:34 am 
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Bastiat wrote:
c. staley wrote:
I think what all the KJ's here are missing is that;
IF this were a case of someone purchasing a hard drive;
#1. AND they are a home user,
#2. and they never use the drive at all, either for home or commercial use,
#3. and they didn't even make the copies that are on the drive,
then this is a lawsuit based solely on possession of unauthorized copies and not the commercial use of those copies.

If you want cheer on rights holders to sue for just possession and not commercial use, then this would put a whole bunch of KJ's (that believe they're somehow "legal") in the same crosshairs.

Chip, I'm having a little difficulty following your logic. Why would #1 ... home user purchase a hard drive if they #2 ... never use the drive at all, either for home or commercial use? Why would someone purchase a hard drive if they don't intend to use it?

it would be pretty ridiculous to purchase something and never use it, but my point is that your lawsuit apparently is for possession and not use.

Bastiat wrote:
] Also, what's the relevance of #3? What does it matter if they made the copies themselves or purchased them from a third party? It's still copyright infringement either way. To the best of my knowledge, the law makes no distinction in this regard, but if you know something I don't please enlighten me.

To the best of my knowledge, the law does make a distinction because one of the essential rights of a copyright owner is reproduction, but you'll have to check with your attorney. Notice that even Phoenix entertainment partners new gem series "disk safekeeping program" forces the licensee to agree that PEP is making the copy; "as their agent" in order to deflect any third-party copyright liability off of themselves and right back onto the Licensee.

But once again, you'll have to check with your attorney, I'll get more popcorn.

Bastiat wrote:
If according to your last sentence "a whole bunch of KJ's" are by infringers by your own definition, then you're damn right they're in the same crosshairs.

I would agree and many of them don't even know it, or they've been misled to believe they are somehow "legal."

Bastiat wrote:
Are you actually trying to suggest that a KJ could somehow unwittingly purchase a hard drive with a 100,000 or more songs and not even remotely suspect that it could be illegal? They would have to be pretty damn stupid to think that, and if they are that stupid then they have no business being in a business whose primary service is to provide products containing the intellectual property of others.

I don't know if I would necessarily agree with your statement that their "primary services to provide products containing the intellectual property of others" because as a karaoke company, I do not provide these products to patrons or to venues (as a sale, lease or rental of a product), my services are entertainment. I purchase products containing the intellectual property of others – to be used as a tool in my entertainment business.

Bastiat wrote:
I suspect that anyone who is that stupid might also become a prime candidate for a future Darwin award. Then again, a little chlorination of the gene pool might not be such a bad idea after all.

I would most wholeheartedly agree.


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:53 am 
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8) Gee Bastiat I thought we were supposed to keep personal attacks at a minimum, and to stick with facts. It's ok with me if you want to go down the recovery rabbit hole, like SC/PEP did. It doesn't effect me directly. If that bothers you too bad. I'm not going to get all excited because you finally decided to press your rights vigorously. It isn't putting money in my pocket, nor taking it out. I think hosts have a right to be skeptical about any recovery process. I was pretty much alone when I stated my doubts about SC's recovery process. Most hosts now doubt aspects of what PEP is doing. We just have to wait and see what happens, with Stellar's recovery process.


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:10 am 
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c. staley wrote:
it would be pretty ridiculous to purchase something and never use it, but my point is that your lawsuit apparently is for possession and not use.

I sort of got that from your last post but I don't understand why you make that distinction when there's no legal difference between the two. These are both acts of contributory infringement.

c. staley wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, the law does make a distinction because one of the essential rights of a copyright owner is reproduction, but you'll have to check with your attorney. Notice that even Phoenix entertainment partners new gem series "disk safekeeping program" forces the licensee to agree that PEP is making the copy; "as their agent" in order to deflect any third-party copyright liability off of themselves and right back onto the Licensee.


It actually doesn't. Here again we're referring to acts of contributory infringement. Whether the infringer copies the content to his own drive or purchases a drive already preloaded with the content doesn't really matter as it then becomes a matter of how the contributory infringement come about, and not if it is a contributory infringement. There would be a distinction made if the infringer were to distribute copies of content in which case it would be a direct infringement and not a contributory one. As to the actions and policies PEP engages with and implements, I'm sure there is some legal basis or theory behind them. Whether or not they've been challenged in the past and are tried and proven or even themselves legal is another matter to which there may or may not be an existing answer. In any event, I have my own legal team and we don't take our queues from PEP nor do we necessarily agree with them on everything, or anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Just like Chip removed all of his Sound Choice material from his shows; someone worried about being sued by Stellar could just remove any and all Stellar tracks that they didn't have a corresponding disc for. It seems to me that it would be very costly to investigate every KJ doing business in America. I would think that you would have to send out cease and desist letters first and then go after the KJ's who ignored that order. Good Luck and Happy Hunting. There seems to be a familiar feeling about this. Sound Choice started out trying to spread fear among the KJs that might be pirates. They even got some people to buy the Gem Series as a way of staying out of legal trouble. Maybe Stellar will come out with a GEM Series of their own?


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:00 pm 
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Sorry for not replying, crazy busy at work and moving into new home. I am just a singer, never looked for Karaoke Forums, I am in the Louisiana Facebook group that shows where all the KJ's are doing shows. My letter came via USMail, not Certified. The Stellar lawsuit mentioned was Karaoke King, and there is documents on the web that shows Stellar won a suit against him for $3,900,000 and he still has Hard Drives for sale online? I think it's a scam and I have contacted my Attorney and was advised to let it go until they do serve official papers. Again, I mentioned from the start, Dumb Decision, but I just wanted to practice and didn't realize how many songs were available via Youtube. My original plan was that I thought I could plug the Hard Drive into my truck's USB and it would play the songs without words and I could sing as I travel for hours every day and that would pass the time. So, that is why it has been in the desk or a cabinet somewhere, has not been found since the move. Thanks for the valued information. I'm just a singer that found Karaoke just a few years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Smoothedge69 wrote:
How did Stellar find out that you bought this drive, if you haven't used it outside your home?


Supposedly they have the Ebay and PayPal sales records that show my name.


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Geezzz, I hadn't checked email in a few days apparently to see that I had replies! Thanks for the info and I understand the haters opinion. I'm not a crook, I was ignorant, it's just like things you read on the internet, you may think it is real because it is on the internet, I thought if it is for sale on a website, it must be legit. I know, dumb decision on my part. I called the Attorney listed on the documents, he wanted my email address and I said no, and when I told him my Attorney was looking into it he didn't want to talk to me anymore. BTW, I pay for Premium Youtube and make Karaoke Playlists, stream via Bluetooth in my truck and sing all day driving down the road, it has really helped my singing voice develop and I know if I can sing it or not by practicing that way. Just gotta get over the Stage Freight!


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:28 pm 
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:o

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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:29 pm 
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Bastiat wrote:
c. staley wrote:
it would be pretty ridiculous to purchase something and never use it, but my point is that your lawsuit apparently is for possession and not use.

I sort of got that from your last post but I don't understand why you make that distinction when there's no legal difference between the two. These are both acts of contributory infringement.

It actually doesn't. Here again we're referring to acts of contributory infringement. Whether the infringer copies the content to his own drive or purchases a drive already preloaded with the content doesn't really matter as it then becomes a matter of how the contributory infringement come about, and not if it is a contributory infringement. There would be a distinction made if the infringer were to distribute copies of content in which case it would be a direct infringement and not a contributory one.

And that's the difference: the word "contributory." Your previous posts made it sound as though your suits were for direct copyright infringement and not contributory. I've downloaded a couple of your complaints and yep.... contributory through and through.... Except of course for the 3 gazillion dollar default judgment against the dimwit that was creating the drives.

Bastiat wrote:
As to the actions and policies PEP engages with and implements, I'm sure there is some legal basis or theory behind them. Whether or not they've been challenged in the past and are tried and proven or even themselves legal is another matter to which there may or may not be an existing answer. In any event, I have my own legal team and we don't take our queues from PEP nor do we necessarily agree with them on everything, or anything.

Well, it seems that every "program" they've promised on has eventually gone bust so I would agree that it's just best to not use them as any kind of guide.

I'm firing up the popcorn machine... on high....


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:26 pm 
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Bastiat wrote:
gd123 wrote:
Yeah, well I don't need a Medical Degree to pop a pimple on my a#s...or do you think that would be Practicing medicine without a license.
Quote:
In your case it would appear to be the equivalent of brain surgery so yes you would need that license.

Well, thank you. It's nice to know, as you pointed out, that I would need a Medical Degree to deal with anything to do with an A#S problem. So glad to know that some people have a natural inbreed aptitude to A#S, so much so, that they do not need a Medical Degree.


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:31 am 
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mrmarog wrote:
https://dmassiplitigation.com/2018/06/14/stellar-records-llc-v-urbanowski-18-cv-11233/

https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20180108749



8) It is not very hard to win a suit if the defendant doesn't bother to show up and contest it. Practically speaking what good does it do to get a large settlement? You have spent the money to go to court, and win your case, what are the chances that you are going to collect anything? The hard drive seller probably doesn't have two dollars the rub together, since he did not even bother to show up to court. As far as the home user abuser is concerned, if they had any money they wouldn't be buying a hot hard drive in the first place. Besides the joy you might get out of ruining some one financially, how is this a financially winning strategy?

This is the same problem faced by SC/PEP, that is why finally they decided to target venues. I don't see where anything has changed dramatically. The same courtroom economics applies to everyone, don't they? After all the court only awards you a settlement, it is up to you and your lawyer to collect, if you can. All the time the only one making anything is the lawyer in fees. That is why Jim Harrington was a partner in PEP, it was the only way PEP could probably afford him.

Another thing that bothers me about this whole business is for the modest price of only $8,000.00 you can get Stellar off your back. Why should they offer such a deal if they can get settlements for millions? Is this some predetermined amount that is felt can be realistically recovered? If forcing Stellar to go to court costs more than what can be recovered, then the whole exercise is a net loser. I sort of remember all of the hosts that settled in California for $5,000.00 apiece before trial, with PEP. The ones that didn't settle ended up paying nothing.


Last edited by The Lone Ranger on Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:04 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:43 am 
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Coincidence?
I think not...LMMFAO

CURRENT LISTING in binaries groups:
Pop Hits Monthly Flood

And, you know, with a VPN, downloading DIRECTLY from a Binary Group would make it IMPOSSIBLE to find out the, "WHO DONE IT."

So, who needs a HARD DRIVE from EBAY?

Just sayin'...I mean, you know, coming from a lessor "Licensed," lessor "ALL KNOWING" person.


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:23 am 
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gd123 wrote:
Coincidence?
I think not...LMMFAO

CURRENT LISTING in binaries groups:
Pop Hits Monthly Flood

And, you know, with a VPN, downloading DIRECTLY from a Binary Group would make it IMPOSSIBLE to find out the, "WHO DONE IT." Perhaps you are incorrect.

So, who needs a HARD DRIVE from EBAY?

Just sayin'...I mean, you know, coming from a lessor "Licensed," lessor "ALL KNOWING" person.


VPN services do respond to requests from the authorities.

So, they can find out "Who Done It" if they wish.

Squeezing blood from a turnip still an issue.
Like Nancy says, just say no.


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:31 am 
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KJKILLER wrote:
Just like Chip removed all of his Sound Choice material from his shows; someone worried about being sued by Stellar could just remove any and all Stellar tracks that they didn't have a corresponding disc for. ...

Just a clarification in case you were confused; I removed Sound Choice to protect myself and my venue/clients from their trolling lawsuits of what they called "technical infringers" which are KJ's that (a) own the discs and always have and (b) refused to pay them a second time for the same material.

I've never been "worried about being sued" by anyone because I've never given anyone a reason to. Harrington has stated on these very forums that he'd love to sue me just on principle while he has accused me of piracy, assisting and/or advising defendants and even instigating the Sony/EMI infringement suit against them (on which they are still paying a 5 year settlement). He and Slep have even gone so far as attempting to subpoena me for a video deposition as a non-party witness for simply telling the truth (something they must be very unfamiliar with).

Note that almost a decade after they started the lawsuits, Slep-tone entertainment is out of business, Harrington has be reprimanded on ethics matters -twice, PEP has been sued for infringement, Harrington has officially quit and even their cheerleaders and "controlled licensees" have been absent from these forums for quite some time.

And I'm here, untouched and still as vocal as ever.

I'll bet they didn't see that coming.


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:49 am 
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KJKILLER wrote:
Just like Chip removed all of his Sound Choice material from his shows; someone worried about being sued by Stellar could just remove any and all Stellar tracks that they didn't have a corresponding disc for. It seems to me that it would be very costly to investigate every KJ doing business in America. I would think that you would have to send out cease and desist letters first and then go after the KJ's who ignored that order. Good Luck and Happy Hunting. There seems to be a familiar feeling about this. Sound Choice started out trying to spread fear among the KJs that might be pirates. They even got some people to buy the Gem Series as a way of staying out of legal trouble. Maybe Stellar will come out with a GEM Series of their own?

If an individual has pirated Stellar products on their hard drive, then they should remove that content from their drives. However, if there's a record of purchase for infringed content, then simply removing the content will not protect the infringer from litigation. You can't un-ring that bell. Secondly we're not looking to investigate EVERY KJ doing business in America, just the ones that we know have infringed on our products. It appears that most people in this forum hold up the SC/PEP approach as the default model. This particular model was one of the main philosophical differences (along with the trademark approach) I had with SC. That's not to say that I'm right and they're wrong, but I just couldn't warm up to the idea of the presumption of guilt, and then insist upon an audit to have to prove one's innocence. i believe in the idea of innocent until proven guilty, and if you're going to accuse someone of guilt you should have a reasonable amount of evidence prior to conducting an audit or initiating legal action. No cease & desist necessary to initiate litigation and this is not a fear tactic. I didn't initiate this topic, nor would I ever have done so, but merely responded to it (and I might ad ... reluctantly so). Stellar will definitely not be coming out with a GEM type series of content.


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:51 am 
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gd123 wrote:
Coincidence?
I think not...LMMFAO

CURRENT LISTING in binaries groups:
Pop Hits Monthly Flood

Thanks for the info ... very helpful in expanding our database of infringers. Makes it even easier for legal knowing they actually request a PHM download. Only need to catch one and the whole thing will fall down like a house of cards. Which begs the question as to why you are in these binary groups?


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 Post subject: Re: Dumb decision
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:48 am 
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Bastiat wrote:
Secondly we're not looking to investigate EVERY KJ doing business in America, just the ones that we know have infringed on our products.
Which is how it should be.

Bastiat wrote:
It appears that most people in this forum hold up the SC/PEP approach as the default model. This particular model was one of the main philosophical differences (along with the trademark approach) I had with SC. That's not to say that I'm right and they're wrong, but I just couldn't warm up to the idea of the presumption of guilt, and then insist upon an audit to have to prove one's innocence.
More important than checking for discs was the requirement of PEP's contract. They were selling contracts by using fear and threats of litigation... complete with a disclaimer to their benefit for (wait for it...) infringement.

Bastiat wrote:
i believe in the idea of innocent until proven guilty, and if you're going to accuse someone of guilt you should have a reasonable amount of evidence prior to conducting an audit or initiating legal action.
Evidence was fairly optional for the first few hundred lawsuits and hundreds of thousands of dollars which explains why investigative reports were "secret work product" and reports were missing, etc.

Read the complaint and exhibits in their suit against APS investigations and you'll find that APS threatened to go public with the fact that there were no investigations unless SC increased their commission percentage... and of course, SC agreed. What does that tell you?

Bastiat wrote:
No cease & desist necessary to initiate litigation and this is not a fear tactic.
Right.


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